Look why the brokers insist so much on the use of Metatrader

[fibo2618]

Look at the weekly EURUSD charts bellow. One is from Metatrader and other from Prorealtime (a professional data supplier).

Pay attention on the line @1.2149 where I think will be a reverse Up. As you can see that line is on a very different place on MT4 giving an idea that a resistance as been broken when in fact the reversal will be above the resistance line. Also I have notice very different results on trendlines.

 

Weekly chart from MT4:

 

Weekly chart on Prorealtime:

[⭐ capsmart]

This is strange because on my Alpari (MT4) it looks like your Prorealtime. The data feed is not a question of the platform but a question of the broker.

On the other hand I really do not believe that there is such a difference. I would accept a spike from your broker just to catch a stop loss intraday but again this is not happening any more with regulated brokers. Also you could have differences during news and this due to liquidity providers for the brokers.

Concerning the trendlines I agree that when you change time frame they get crazy. So if you draw a trendline on the 4h and then move to the 5 min the lines are not more where they should.

[fibo2618]

This is strange because on my Alpari (MT4) it looks like your Prorealtime. The data feed is not a question of the platform but a question of the broker.

On the other hand I really do not believe that there is such a difference. I would accept a spike from your broker just to catch a stop loss intraday but again this is not happening any more with regulated brokers. Also you could have differences during news and this due to liquidity providers for the brokers.

Concerning the trendlines I agree that when you change time frame they get crazy. So if you draw a trendline on the 4h and then move to the 5 min the lines are not more where they should.

 

Capsmart,

You are right, Alpari looks like Prorealtime. And it seems is not a Metatrader fault.

And more strange or mailicious is that I have found that on my broker FXpro is only wrong on the real account, but correct on a demo. Strange, isn't it?

My guess is that they give me different data depending on the type of account, that's why I will get different results.

Could this only happens on my broker or is a common practice?

 

Here is my chart on the same installation and broker but on a demo account:

 

Edited January 1, 2012 by fibo2618

[iwjw]

It's all an issue with the historical data. There are tons of gaps in all timeframes

fibo2618 check your weekly candles where your chart stayed above 2194....there should be data missing

[fibo2618]

It's all an issue with the historical data. There are tons of gaps in all timeframes

fibo2618 check your weekly candles where your chart stayed above 2194....there should be data missing

 

Well, I have deleted all my historical data on the real account and download a fresh one. Guess what? The same problem. The strange is, if there are gaps, then why that happens on a real account only? Doesn't the real account should be the more accurate?

[⭐ kesk]

Its a known fact some brokers delay/hide/ and stop hunt etc their feeds. So change your broker.

[value_]

Concerning the trendlines I agree that when you change time frame they get crazy. So if you draw a trendline on the 4h and then move to the 5 min the lines are not more where they should.

 

 

I think this bug is finally fixed!

[⭐ capsmart]

Hi Value_

I see that you are from Greece and so do I.

I am afraid the bug is not fixed yet.

I just created a simple eur/usd chart and added an horizontal line at the top of a 1h candle where a trendline is also touching. Now see the 1m chart and you will notice the difference.

[⭐ osijek1289]

I am fairly certain everything can be explained, but, you may not like my answer. I say that partially, because, you have provided a very misleading title to the thread, and chosen to - very quickly - blame initially Metaquotes and then FxPro, although, ultimately, they may have some sort of technical glitch. BUT, before that, it's important to check out your MT4 history logs, for the server you connect to.

 

(While some will kick and scream that FxPro and Metaquotes is to blame, the bottom line is PCs and the datalink between you and your broker PLUS their infrastructure is prone to all sorts of problems, so, it's important to try and understand what is going on behind the scenes.)

 

I happen to use a FxPro demo, and the chart there seems correct; I realize you also said your FxPro demo chart is correct, but, there are technical PC (your own computer) related issues why that might be so.

 

From the first chart you posted, it is evident that there is a data gap: it's visible on the chart, and, if nothing else, when you hover at the bottom or top part of any candle on a MT4 chart, it will display that time/open/close/high/low/volume data for that candle, with the closing date/time on the x-axis. Based on that, I'm sure you will see a gap on the weekly chart. Your initial chart looks to be missing many weeks of data, meaning, many weekly candles are missing: the low to 1.18757 and the surrounding candles are just not there.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not making excuses for FxPro; they are Cyprus based and no serious money trader would be using them. I happen to have a MT4 demo account from years ago, which I do still use because their MT4 closing time/charts are alligned with a 5pm NY close, which is the defacto standard for Forex and most instrument trading, and is most used even in London, not to mention, 5pm NY time is when interbank settlement occurs and many systems go offline for at least a few minutes.

 

BUT, I know the issue is not purposefully caused by Metaquotes (as your conspiracy based original title suggests) and I don't think the issue is purposefully caused by FxPro. Why? If one was trading around this time, one would presumably have looked at a weekly EURUSD chart and noticed a discrepancy over the many many weeks that appear to be missing from the chart you presumably pulled up for the first time just recently. Thus, the issue has somehow crept into either the FxPro demo server historical weekly data chart since June/2010 OR it is a local PC issue with MT4.

 

A basic understanding of how MT4 works is necessary. When one brings up any timeframe chart for the first time, it then connects to the designated server - and makes the first download of the data for whatever (monthly, weekly, daily, etc.) chart one is requesting. That data is then stored permanently on your hard drive, within the MT4 directory structure, in my case <drive>:\Program Files\FxPro - MetaTrader\history\FxPro.com-Demo . So, when you display the chart the next time, it only will download any new data - that makes for quicker and more efficient chart display. MT4 (and any charting package) will work this way. And, it doesn't really matter if it's a weekly or minute chart: in the case of a minute chart, it is plotting realtime price, but only storing the final candle 1 minute close/open/volume/high/low data. Thus, once it has downloaded it, it will never download it again, unless you force it. It also means, any errors transmitted up to that point, will not be re-downloaded, and thus errors remain in the chart.

 

So, how to fix it? If you have right-clicked on the chart and done a refresh, it may or may not have resent the data. It could well be the data is being sent wrongly from the FxPro demo MT4 servers. Perhaps the best way to verify that is do a quick reinstall of MT4 into a new directory on your PC, where you know it will be forced to request anew all the data for every chart you build there. (You can remove or uninstall it afterwards). Should the chart work correctly, you can copy the EURUSD10080.hst file from whatever directory the chart history is stored in, something like <drive>:\Program Files\FxPro - MetaTrader\history\FxPro.com-Demo01 . EURUSD10080.hst is the weekly chart because 60min*24*7=10,080 minutes.

 

I've included a screenshot of my FxPro demo account with along with a view of the history file: I am certain if you check yours, it will be missing that June 6 entry and many weeks around it. You can use the download or import/export features to reconstruct it, use the editting features, OR, just grab the EURUSD10080.hst from your own FxPro MT4 demo directory structure, and copy it over to your FxPro real trading account /HISTORY subfolder. Be careful though to put it in the right directory, as, even in my own FxPro demo /HISTORY directory, 4 different servers are listed. (As noted below, MT4 brokers will change/add servers, and your won't necessarily know it)

 

... And it seems is not a Metatrader fault.

And more strange or mailicious is that I have found that on my broker FXpro is only wrong on the real account, but correct on a demo. Strange, isn't it?

 

The feed for demo accounts with almost all brokers comes from different servers than the trading servers - this is a good thing, but, also opens the door for more things to go wrong, ie., during data transmission, outages, etc.

 

Also, brokers make changes to their server infrastructure over time, presumably for better client operations. This can include adding backup MT4 servers, adding server domain name changes for redundancy purposes, changing liquidity providers, and many other reasons. In this case, given the low of 1.18 low of June 2010 is missing from the weekly chart of your real account, there can be lots of different reasons, including a technical glitch in your MT4 installation on your local PC - I'm not blaming anyone, but rather MT4 just doesn't know any better, until you go in and 'help' it - this is why understanding how a program or PCs, data transmission, broker infrastructure works, etc - is important.

 

My guess is that they give me different data depending on the type of account, that's why I will get different results.

Could this only happens on my broker or is a common practice?

 

 

Well, I have deleted all my historical data on the real account and download a fresh one. Guess what? The same problem. The strange is, if there are gaps, then why that happens on a real account only? Doesn't the real account should be the more accurate?

 

BTW, I have seen data disappear from charts based off of Currenex datafeeds, CQG, and accounts where 8 figure sums are involved - it's not purposeful, just glitches that creep in, and may or many not get fixed automatically, but, often require human intervention. I have seen incredibly important price levels disappear off some of the industry's most renowned charting packages. Regardless of amounts, it's good to have other feeds running, and cross checking anything that might be suspicious.

 

If you determine that FxPro is sending wrong historical data for EURUSD weekly, you should be able to write them, and they should reinstate/fix the data. It's a bit of work for them and most brokers don't bother doing so, but if pressed, should do it. (They will rarely entertain this type of request on a minutes based chart but in the case of higher timeframes they should be technically savvy enough to grab the data from their demo environment and put it on their production/trading server).

 

So, let's not jump on the bash MT4 bandwagon: it's a decent and quite efficient charting package, prone to technical glitches beyond it's full control just like any other charting package, and, often made worse by incredibly unscrupulous broker practices and broker deficiencies.

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/2czsqc4.png

Edited January 2, 2012 by osijek1289

[fibo2618]

osijek1289 ,

 

I dont know about you, but I depend on the graphics for the game. You have tried to excuse both Fxpro and Metatrader. For me there is no excuse. If there are issues then we the traders must know about and not discover it. After all is our money that is in the game. And let's say that that kind of issues are very profitable for the brokers.

And I dont know exactly who is the fault on this case, if from the broker or the platform. I have checked the FXpro web platform and the same graphic on the real account is correct, what makes me think that could be again a problem with metatrader, metaquotes or whatever.

 

Now for the trendlines.

Just look for the examples that I have recorded just now on the GPBUSD on metatrader (Alpari) and Prorealtime and Dukascopy.

Is the trendline broken yet? According to Metatrader, yes.

But the other 2 platforms are telling: NO!

Now, don't you think this deserve some attention? Is Metatrader reliable? I don't think so.

 

 

Metatrader GBPUSD15m

 

 

 

Prorealtime GBPUSD15m

 

 

and Dukascopy GBPUSD15m

 

Edited January 2, 2012 by fibo2618
update

[Kristianto]

MT4 is so popular but guess what.... More traders lose money using MT4 than any other trading method. Thats why brokers love to market MT4 to retail, easy to fund your account (credt card), open account in 30mins, trade up to 500X leverage. in the end it is just a casino with you trying all kinds of EAs...can you name one person/bank/financial institution who became extremely rich using automated trading? Only one. Goldman Sachs.

[value_]

Hi Value_

I see that you are from Greece and so do I.

I am afraid the bug is not fixed yet.

I just created a simple eur/usd chart and added an horizontal line at the top of a 1h candle where a trendline is also touching. Now see the 1m chart and you will notice the difference.

 

Απίστευτο? Δύο Ελληνες σε Ινδονησιακό forum?

 

And you have right! It's not fixed.

[⭐ osijek1289]

I dont know about you, but I depend on the graphics for the game. You have tried to excuse both Fxpro and Metatrader. For me there is no excuse. If there are issues then we the traders must know about and not discover it.

 

fibo2618, Of course graphics and chart layout is a huge part of it. Do remember that the data is pushed to MT4 by your broker; MT4 will plot whatever is pushed into it (or not plot what it does not have). I have absolutely no interest in making excuses. I am trying to explain to you what is occuring, and what the likely reasons are. There's a difference. I could care less about excusing any company. But it's important to understand where the data comes from, and who is behind the data that is being pushed into MT4. If your interest is to understand, then read on. If you want to build conspiracy theories, and declare the entire industry and world of trading a scam, then there's not much I can do to help promote rational thought.

 

After all is our money that is in the game. And let's say that that kind of issues are very profitable for the brokers.

 

Of course it's our money - that's all the more reason to understand how things work. You don't buy any car without knowing how to drive, and you don't blame the car if you end up driving on the wrong side of the road, plow it off a bridge, confuse the gas and brake pedals, or plow it into a lake expecting it to float like a boat. It requires some knowledge and skill - the more the better. Trading any instrument, and doing so through a MT4 broker or another piece of charting software requires the same approach. On brokers, of course they need to make money. Many will try to dupe and trick you. Using the car example, it's just as easy to get duped: do you need factory rustproofing on your new car purchased from a dealer for $2,000 if a more qualitative aftermarket one is available for $800? Who's to blame if you find out afterwards? Are all the options on your fully loaded car really worth what you are being charged? Do you understand that options on a car (better stereo, leather, floor mats, sunroof, steel rims, etc.) are where a disproportionate amount of profits for the manufacturer and dealer come from? Similarly, you need to understand how the brokerage industry works.

 

And I dont know exactly who is the fault on this case, if from the broker or the platform. I have checked the FXpro web platform and the same graphic on the real account is correct, what makes me think that could be again a problem with metatrader, metaquotes or whatever.

 

I don't get the sense that you checked some of the things I suggested in my previous post. Understanding how MT4 works - and the data that is being pushed to you is important. You seem to be guessing or maybe just want to blame everyone - that's fine, but if you're going to post it, you should be able to defend it. On your broker, you need to have a reasonable track record of trust in the broker you have selected. Frankly, FxPro is not one I would ever recommend to anyone: they are Cyprus based for a reason, as are a hugely disproportionate many other brokers. Alpari is not one I respect, because of the huge amount of pricing, spread and reliability games they play. More about that later.

 

Now for the trendlines.

Just look for the examples that I have recorded just now on the GPBUSD on metatrader (Alpari) and Prorealtime and Dukascopy.

Is the trendline broken yet? According to Metatrader, yes.

But the other 2 platforms are telling: NO!

Now, don't you think this deserve some attention? Is Metatrader reliable? I don't think so.

 

Hmm. You say Metatrader is not reliable. Metatrader built the product to display the data that is pushed to it. In this case, Alpari pushed the data to Metatrader. But, what kind of data did it push? How reliable is it overall? Is it complete? Where does the data come from?

 

Here's the problem with your Alpari chart. (And yes, prorealtime and Dukas are more correct.) Here's a copy of your Alpari GBPUSD M15 chart, where I have annotated the problematic candle, where you have drawn your trendline - note it's high is probably more than 10 pips less than what the actual price did.

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/wtt16c.png

 

Here's another MT4 chart, also of GBPUSD M15, but with a datafeed from Citibank, a MT4 platform I trust. (Citibank is BTW one of the top 5 liquidity providers for forex in the world - more on this later).

 

http://i40.tinypic.com/23o9y0.png

 

Hopefully you realize that one candle is what controls the angle of your trendline. If Alpari did not push the data to Metatrader, your chart will be wrong. But that doesn't mean it's Metatrader's fault. Note on my (MT4) Citibank datafeed how different the price spikes and candles are. This is especially important given the relatively tight price ranges in play during one of the most illiquid trading times of the year.

 

A few words on liquidity. It's of paramount importance in determining what type of chart is plotted for you, excruciatingly important to give you accurate entries where you want them and without slippage. Dukascopy claims to have feeds out to multiple major liquidity providers - this is a very good thing. If their platform is built properly - and is to benefit the customer - they should be able to secure you a better price entry than what you asked for. This is the certainly the case with my Citibank MT4 platform: if price starts moving quickly, or there is a lack of bids, I receive better than expected entries and profits, because they have deep liquidity. I would recommend everyone find out who their MT4 brokers provider is, ie., which bank. If they won't tell you (ie., they will say "that is confidential"), you should become extremely concerned and suspicious. They don't have to tell you, but, the fact they do not is cause for alarm IMHO. You will find that most small brokers do not tell you who they clear through; it tends to go hand in hand with them operating in questionable locations like Cyprus, Belize, etc. If you want to learn more about liquidity - and tons more about the global forex industry, you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forex BTW, a decent way to guage your MT4 broker's liquidity is to check volume. An indicator like bettervolume for MT4 will display tick volume on the y-scale; I have seen smallish MT4 brokers (ie., Russian based) display volume levels that are hundreds of times less than what Citibank will display. These volumes are just a guide - they don't excuse or prevent tinkering with the spread, or price spikes, as is evident Alpari does, via the next set of bullets.

 

IMHO, Alpari should not be used as a broker for many reasons. Here are just a few:

 

1. First, they open Sunday 1 hour after the intermarket and any reputable broker opens. They open 6pm NY time Sunday - a proper broker should open 5pm NY time. The fact they open 1 hour later means less candles on your H1, M30, M15s charts and so on. Thus, you get improper charting, which has nothing to do with MT4. The charts will be wrong because Alpari did not push all the data to you.
    
   
2. Alpari plays major games with the spread and thus PA. They choose to fix the spreads, but they have many different spreads for the same pair. Yet, their liquidity provider gives them the one price, but they choose to increase spreads based on the type of account you have, partially based on the amount of money you put on deposit. There are other hokey conditions, depending on where you live. Check here. http://www.alpari.co.uk/en/forex-trading/spreads-and-margins.html . And yet, they advertise all this as features that are somehow better for the trader! Meanwhile, the reality is if you have a $500 account, they will give you a wider spread, meaning they choose to make more money off you. Unreal. And meanwhile, they are increasing the buy and sell rates in their favour. This is a scam.
    
   
3. They seem to have data drop outs. If MT4 does not get the price data correctly and completely, your charts will be wrong. Period. This seems to happen frequently.
    
   
4. And, your Alpari chart demonstrates they are controlling price spikes in their favour, thus again, you are not seeing the true market price. This is either due to poor liquidity providers, where Alpari pads the price. In addition to not getting proper price entries and exits, and thus causing financial harm to the account holder, the charts are also improperly drawn. Let's discuss this next.
   

 

I know this is a long response, but stuff like this cannot be simplified. The bottom line is that your MT4 charts are bad and incorrect because the brokers are pushing bad and incomplete data to your MT4 platform. Period. Hence, the broker is the problem - their marketing will paint a completely different picture. If you choose to believe the warped language they use to market and showcase themselves - without doing any homework and understanding how the systems work - then you are going to be on the losing side, and they will eventually screw you one way or another.

 

P.S. - You should read the customer agreement you signed with your MT4 broker. I have read many of them: it is shocking how many will give you no guarantees that your trade is going out to the intermarket/banks - this means they match it in house, and, also can trade against you, regardless of what their "feel good" web pages state.

[⭐ osijek1289]

MT4 is so popular but guess what.... More traders lose money using MT4 than any other trading method.

 

Hmm. The key here is who falls under the term "traders." Is a trader the guy who saw an ad claiming how easy it was to turn $200 into $350,000 in 6 months? Is a trader a guy who has traded a $1,000,000 demo account by martingaling in and out of positions to make $50,000? Would these "traders" win if their broker gave them Tradestation, NinjaTrader or Investor/RT as the platform they trade on? Probably not.

 

MT4 is cheap to operate (compared to other platforms) and their per transaction cost (buried in every trade) is cheap. Hence, given MT4 is used by the vast majority of those trying to trade for profit, obviously that doesn't happen, and they then lose their money for a long list of reasons.

 

Thats why brokers love to market MT4 to retail, easy to fund your account (credt card), open account in 30mins, ...

Of course you're right. The odds are 90% that these fresh newbie "traders" are going to lose all their money. That's why most (MT4) brokers don't even charge-back the ~3% they loose on the customer's credit card deposit - they know they will get it all back.

 

... trade up to 500X leverage.

 

Yes, another formula for fast track financial account collapse. Given these newbie "traders" don't know how to trade or have any idea what leverage is, this is guaranteed slaughter. If I was immoral and set up a brokerage knowing that 90% of your customer's money will be yours, I too would locate in places like Cyprus, Belize, etc. where the no local citizen is allowed to trade, solely because non-resident customers have no legal rights when they lose their money, or, the brokerage shuts down. BTW, no mainstream brokerage offers 500x leverage because of the major legal implications of doing so.

 

in the end it is just a casino with you trying all kinds of EAs...

 

For most people, absolutely yes. But there are EAs that will work - the secret is applying the right type of EA during the right market conditions. Knowing how to do this is part of that incredibly long road of learning how to trade properly, which most people never get to. And, for the few that do, they don't end up employing EAs, because they have learned how to trade and make money on their own skill. Hence, it's a casino for those that don't yet know how to trade, and cannot escape the market moves and conditions that no EA can ever ever predict.

 

 

can you name one person/bank/financial institution who became extremely rich using automated trading? Only one. Goldman Sachs.

Well, there are many getting rich, but trading in specific ways. High Frequency Trading as an example has made many already privelaged individuals rich. It's a high cost of entry market, and one could say it's the rich getting richer.

 

I honestly don't know to what extent Goldman is using HFT, but they likely don't make prominent use of any automated trading simply because it can't easily be built. Major brokerage houses have tried - and spent millions in actual projects - and they have largely failed. Hence, they still employ in-house traders.

 

Goldman has unquestionably hoarded immense riches at the expense of others, by using a wide array of tricks and lies that nobody wants to admit to. It's unlikely it would ever catch up to them or any of the other similar investment banks, because, as bad as what they do or did is, undoing it is virtually impossible, and, would IMHO plunge the planet into economic collapse beyond anyone's imagination. That doesn't right or condone their manipulation, it's just the way it is. If you're in the dark on what's been going on for the past few years, you should be able to find avenues to get a free copy/download of An Inside Job (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/)

 

But, I assure you there are traders who have and are making it. They may have started in MT4, and of that small lot that succeed, very few remain using MT4, for a variety of reasons. If you have doubt about being able to make it, there's some very interesting examples and intelligent discussion here, one of the best forums around: http://www.bigmiketrading.com/psychology-money-management/3649-primary-source-income-how-many-have-made.html

[enjoyaol]

Seriously, stop comparing brokers data. Forex is NOT REGULATED do you know what this mean ? It's not a secret and it's perfectly OK that comparing charts between different data sources will lead to differences. When you trade with broker A, you are trading with broker A customers. If you trade with B, you are trading with B customers !

How hard is it to understand ? Every broker will have different data because the market EURUSD at broker A will be different than the market named EURUSD at another broker... If you want real same data between different brokers, stop trading forex and trade futures or equities instead.

[⭐ osijek1289]

enjoyaol, I think you're right only when a less-popularized and "self-regulated" forex broker is used - that applies to the vast majority of MT4 houses. The Hotforex's, Admirals, Alparis of the world when they take on a $100, $1000 or smallish amount customer deposit, expect that they will get 80% of that money in their pocket, meanwhile speeding the process along with wider spreads and dealing desks.

 

But, the forex market is $4 trillion daily, far more than currency futures. There is huge institutional presence in the market that does not get talked about by the traders on boards like this. And those institutions make money and receive tight largely uniform pricing on their charts. MT4 is an incredibly small and largely meaningless part of the spot forex trading market. Once you get to a true ECN/STP level via your forex broker (MT4 or other platform), there is more than enough liquidity there, and you are trading with largely standardized prices. MT4 is even available via Citibank, a top 5 liquidity provider. Other decent forex paths with incredibly tight spreads are Currenex, Berkley ( http://www.bfl.co.uk/online-trading/forex.html ) Barclays ( http://www.barx.com/fx/index.html ) or other channels that give you access to FXAll, Hotspot and others. Liquidity is really the key - when you have that - prices will be within fractions of pips among all the providers. True, you need $50K+ to access many of these, but there are decent names in the MT4 field that even the playing field a lot in the world of MT4.

 

But, when people choose to trade with brokers in Cyprus, Belize, Mauritius and don't recognize they chose to locate there because the broker can choose to do what he wants, regardless of affiliations and what the customer-broker contract says, well, then it's only the wild west that will save you.

Edited January 31, 2012 by osijek1289

[dezerter]

take a look at this one guys

 

[Kristianto]

That's a very rational reply and you present very good arguments.

 

Sadly i've seen too many traders around me fail miserably while chasing the FX holy grail.

 

Emotion and discipline are the biggest enemies in the career of a forex trader.