Any MotiveWave expert users out there please?

Hello Group... I have installed MotiveWave v4.2.24 the other day (thank you Shenong). Has anyone else noticed that the Elliott Wave counts from different time frames sometimes do not "agree" with one another and are not in sync? It makes it hard to trust any analysis when one time frame says it is going in one direction, and another time frame says the opposite.

Please have a look at the 2 screenshots attached of the intraday SPY action for today (Apr. 10). On the 5 minute chart, we have a count forecasting a decline down to around 231. But on the 1 hour chart EW forecast, it shows no move at all down to 231, but a rise up into the 240's. Very strange, no?

Nice software MotiveWave - but such results make it kind of hard to trust! Has anyone else also experienced this.... maybe I am just doing something fundamentally wrong somewhere...

https://anonfile.com/deA70db2b5/MW5min.jpg

https://anonfile.com/e1A501bdbb/MW1hour.jpg

Thanks!

Shawn

Hello Group... I have installed MotiveWave v4.2.24 the other day (thank you Shenong). Has anyone else noticed that the Elliott Wave counts from different time frames sometimes do not "agree" with one another and are not in sync? It makes it hard to trust any analysis when one time frame says it is going in one direction, and another time frame says the opposite.

Please have a look at the 2 screenshots attached of the intraday SPY action for today (Apr. 10). On the 5 minute chart, we have a count forecasting a decline down to around 231. But on the 1 hour chart EW forecast, it shows no move at all down to 231, but a rise up into the 240's. Very strange, no?

 

Nice software MotiveWave - but such results make it kind of hard to trust! Has anyone else also experienced this.... maybe I am just doing something fundamentally wrong somewhere...

 

https://anonfile.com/deA70db2b5/MW5min.jpg

https://anonfile.com/e1A501bdbb/MW1hour.jpg

 

Thanks!

Shawn

It 'absolutely normal asynchrony ...

Clusters are different. Elliot w. based whole theory of default alternation of "waves" of basic mathematical relationships. Otherwise it is not based on a (single) exclusive time / price relationship (example..Gann) ...

It's normal.

Thank you for the feedback guys. I do understand that EW is not an exact science, with more than one different outcome... but still it's unsettling when you have so many time frames disagreeing. I trade 5min and 10min charts so I was hoping that MotiveWave would provide some halfway-useful counts for those shorter time frames, I do agree that the longer-term count should take priority, but I would still love to see more consistency and agreement among the counts of different timeframes.

But doing some more digging in MotiveWave, I think I *may* have found what is contributing to this - scrolling back in the history of each timeframce chart, I see that the 30min and 1hr charts start their EW analysis/labeling on the major low of Nov 4/2016 (labelled as "0"). Whereas the 5min and 15min charts start their analysis on the high of March 15/2017. To me, this would cause a misleading short-term count, as the real recent major swing high/low was several days before that on March 1, no?! I'm no expert on Elliott Wave, but I have a feeling that's why the shorter timeframe counts are not in sync, in this particular case anyway.

Maybe there is some setting to "force" MotiveWave to start its analysis on a certain date?? Thoughts anyone?

Cheers

Shawn

Basically it just repaints. I spent much time with EW and found be excellent, but on historical charts only!!!

What did like on MW is the patterns ( bat, shark, etc..) on the hourly chart.

Good trading

Thank you for the feedback guys. I do understand that EW is not an exact science, with more than one different outcome... but still it's unsettling when you have so many time frames disagreeing. I trade 5min and 10min charts so I was hoping that MotiveWave would provide some halfway-useful counts for those shorter time frames, I do agree that the longer-term count should take priority, but I would still love to see more consistency and agreement among the counts of different timeframes.

 

But doing some more digging in MotiveWave, I think I *may* have found what is contributing to this - scrolling back in the history of each timeframce chart, I see that the 30min and 1hr charts start their EW analysis/labeling on the major low of Nov 4/2016 (labelled as "0"). Whereas the 5min and 15min charts start their analysis on the high of March 15/2017. To me, this would cause a misleading short-term count, as the real recent major swing high/low was several days before that on March 1, no?! I'm no expert on Elliott Wave, but I have a feeling that's why the shorter timeframe counts are not in sync, in this particular case anyway.

 

Maybe there is some setting to "force" MotiveWave to start its analysis on a certain date?? Thoughts anyone?

 

Cheers

Shawn

Guys, I have solved my problem! I dug around a little more in the MotiveWave docs and it is all explained here:

http://www.motivewave.com/support/how_to/elliott_wave_study.htm

So if you notice that your wave counts for different timeframes are "disagreeing", just look back in a daily or weekly history chart of your instrument (ie. SPY) and locate a very major high or low. Use that date (or better - a few days before) as your START DATE when doing an elliott wave "Auto Analyze". Make sure "Minimum Bars" and "Maximum bars" are greyed out and put a check mark next to "Use Date". I also like to select "Decompose All". This way seems to give good solid EW counts agreeing across all my timeframes. Unfortunately, InteractiveBrokers data will not retrieve 5 min bars all the way back to the major low of Jan 19/2016, so I had to use the "intermediate" major low on Nov 4/2016. It seems to be still okay. Thanks for the input everyone... I hope what I have described here helps someone who was in the same situation as I was!

Mr. Forexonly - you said "What did like on MW is the patterns ( bat, shark, etc..) on the hourly chart.". I have yet to explore this part of MW... I'm not really familiar with Gartley patterns but I will look into it. Have you tried scanning (and trading) for those patterns using Daily charts with success also... or only hourly charts? The built-in scanner of MW seems really useful for this. When a Gartley pattern is found, does it also give a price target that might be reached?

Thanks

Shawn

Hi

I do use the scanner and it is very effective in finding set ups. I have tried many different time frames and I was only able to make money with:

1. 1 hour charts

2. Take completion of bats and sharks ( reversals, or finding tops or bottoms)

3. Forex only ( hence my handle)

4. you can try it with NT indicators as well, it's the set up that works, not the tool ( MW)

it's good for 70-80% prob., but with 2 or even 3 to 1 risk reward, it works; why? I have no idea!!

Good luck.

Guys, I have solved my problem! I dug around a little more in the MotiveWave docs and it is all explained here:

 

 

http://www.motivewave.com/support/how_to/elliott_wave_study.htm

 

 

So if you notice that your wave counts for different timeframes are "disagreeing", just look back in a daily or weekly history chart of your instrument (ie. SPY) and locate a very major high or low. Use that date (or better - a few days before) as your START DATE when doing an elliott wave "Auto Analyze". Make sure "Minimum Bars" and "Maximum bars" are greyed out and put a check mark next to "Use Date". I also like to select "Decompose All". This way seems to give good solid EW counts agreeing across all my timeframes. Unfortunately, InteractiveBrokers data will not retrieve 5 min bars all the way back to the major low of Jan 19/2016, so I had to use the "intermediate" major low on Nov 4/2016. It seems to be still okay. Thanks for the input everyone... I hope what I have described here helps someone who was in the same situation as I was!

 

Mr. Forexonly - you said "What did like on MW is the patterns ( bat, shark, etc..) on the hourly chart.". I have yet to explore this part of MW... I'm not really familiar with Gartley patterns but I will look into it. Have you tried scanning (and trading) for those patterns using Daily charts with success also... or only hourly charts? The built-in scanner of MW seems really useful for this. When a Gartley pattern is found, does it also give a price target that might be reached?

 

Thanks

Shawn

Thank you for the tips Forexonly! I did look a little at the scanner and Gartley patterns. I tried a scan on some daily data charts. The patterns produced however were quite long-term... it would take some months to play out. I think I agree with you that hourly time frame is more reasonable and useful. I trade stock options and I think this will be useful to me to find good setups and trades lasting a few weeks or so. Just right.

As I was testing this, it occured to me that a Gartley pattern is not much different than an Elliott Wave A-B-C structure. I think running an automatic elliott wave count on a chart that shows a good Gartley pattern, would be a very good confirmation tool, no? If the "D" point of the Gartley corresponded with the end of an elliot wave 2, I think that would be a very very good signal for catching the start of an impulsive wave 3. What do you think? Perhaps you are already doing this...

You mentioned too "Take completion of bats and sharks". What about the other types of Gartley patterns such as Butterfly, Crab, Deep Crab, Cypher, etc. Do you find that they don't work as well?

Thanks!

Shawn

Hi

I do use the scanner and it is very effective in finding set ups. I have tried many different time frames and I was only able to make money with:

1. 1 hour charts

2. Take completion of bats and sharks ( reversals, or finding tops or bottoms)

3. Forex only ( hence my handle)

4. you can try it with NT indicators as well, it's the set up that works, not the tool ( MW)

it's good for 70-80% prob., but with 2 or even 3 to 1 risk reward, it works; why? I have no idea!!

 

Good luck.

Hi

Adding the waves can and did eliminate many good set ups, so I just use the patterns, and specifically bats and sharks. Wave 3 is very inciting and I love to catch one, but does not happen much in real trading.The other patterns did not do as well ( for me). Other patterns also, did not go over 50% profit, but again with a good R/R you can still take them and do okay. After years of losing I learned to stick with what works and makes money and that's only Bats and sharks on the hourly. It may work well on daily, but the stop loss where too much for me to handle and I am like you, can wait days or maybe weeks, but not months.

Also, with a full time job, it's hard to handle lower time frame, but again may work for some.

I will try to set up a journal with few example, but no promises.

Good trading,

Thank you for the tips Forexonly! I did look a little at the scanner and Gartley patterns. I tried a scan on some daily data charts. The patterns produced however were quite long-term... it would take some months to play out. I think I agree with you that hourly time frame is more reasonable and useful. I trade stock options and I think this will be useful to me to find good setups and trades lasting a few weeks or so. Just right.

As I was testing this, it occured to me that a Gartley pattern is not much different than an Elliott Wave A-B-C structure. I think running an automatic elliott wave count on a chart that shows a good Gartley pattern, would be a very good confirmation tool, no? If the "D" point of the Gartley corresponded with the end of an elliot wave 2, I think that would be a very very good signal for catching the start of an impulsive wave 3. What do you think? Perhaps you are already doing this...

 

You mentioned too "Take completion of bats and sharks". What about the other types of Gartley patterns such as Butterfly, Crab, Deep Crab, Cypher, etc. Do you find that they don't work as well?

 

Thanks!

Shawn

Yes. on daily time frame those Gartley patterns can be massive. Who can wait that long?? Do you put much weight in the "scoring" system that the scanner of Motivewave uses... ie. 1, 2, or 3 green dots. Do you tend to go for only the 3-green-dot recommendations, or it really doesn't make much difference?

I have run into another puzzling issue with MotiveWave also - when applying an Elliott Wave "Auto-analyze" to a chart of 5-minute bars that I have set to go back to Jan 15/2016, it will give the error message "Unable to auto-analyze. Not enough data is available". I assumed that my brokers datafeed (InteractiveBrokers) would not supply 5-min bars to go back that far, so I got my hands on an ascii file of 5-min bar history going from Jan 1/2016 to June 30/2016... plenty (I thought) to fill in the gap. I imported it in correctly (at least it seemed so) and ran the Auto-ANalyzer again but it gave the same message. Have you ever experienced any such problem with historical data?

Thank you so much for the assistance Forexonly, I appreciate it. A Happy easter to you and your family!

Cheers

Shawn

Hi

Happy Easter to you and yours as well. I do not use the scoring and could never figure how they do score it. So I take all the majors pairs ( low spread) and all the dots. My guess is that the dots are not much help. I also think that the key to making money in markets is that :

1. Markets move up and down ( on intermediate time frame-such as the hourly) and what goes up will drop down.

2. You must trade with 2 or 3/1 R/R ( actually try trading using a pure random up/down signal with good R/R and you will make money.)

If you see products such as MTP, which is a trully worthless product, but sells well and many have made money doing due to the high Risk/Reward in the signals. I cannot tell you about the issue with IB/MW since I used FXCM data, which gives me plenty of data. And I am really not a good person to advice with EW since I don't really use it much and think it is not effective.

Last but not least, I only started making good money when I moved away from the very short time frame, such as the 5M.

Good trading,

F

Yes. on daily time frame those Gartley patterns can be massive. Who can wait that long?? Do you put much weight in the "scoring" system that the scanner of Motivewave uses... ie. 1, 2, or 3 green dots. Do you tend to go for only the 3-green-dot recommendations, or it really doesn't make much difference?

 

I have run into another puzzling issue with MotiveWave also - when applying an Elliott Wave "Auto-analyze" to a chart of 5-minute bars that I have set to go back to Jan 15/2016, it will give the error message "Unable to auto-analyze. Not enough data is available". I assumed that my brokers datafeed (InteractiveBrokers) would not supply 5-min bars to go back that far, so I got my hands on an ascii file of 5-min bar history going from Jan 1/2016 to June 30/2016... plenty (I thought) to fill in the gap. I imported it in correctly (at least it seemed so) and ran the Auto-ANalyzer again but it gave the same message. Have you ever experienced any such problem with historical data?

 

Thank you so much for the assistance Forexonly, I appreciate it. A Happy easter to you and your family!

 

Cheers

Shawn

Yes, the dot scoring system doesn't seem to really make much sense to me either! A thing I was wondering about Gartley patterns is do you enter a trade *right* at point "D" (or when it starts to turn) ? And stop loss would be just below corresponding point "X"?

Cheers

Shawn

Yes and I do give my stop loss some wiggling room since the Target is very good, most of the time.

Yes, the dot scoring system doesn't seem to really make much sense to me either! A thing I was wondering about Gartley patterns is do you enter a trade *right* at point "D" (or when it starts to turn) ? And stop loss would be just below corresponding point "X"?

 

Cheers

Shawn

Thank you Sir... when I get some more free time I will more closely investigate about these Gartley patterns and give them a try. Thank you for the advice.

Cheers

Shawn

Hi shawnh,

I was helping with Motive Wave development for the first 18 months or so. Not actually programing but consulting on various tools from traders perspective. Motive Wave is a nice software, but as any software which was not developed by traders - it has some shortcomings.

Tools like Elliott Wave are very subjective, and that is always a huge obstacle in creating an automatic wave recognition software.

Gartley pattern has specific requirement to be valid - Wave "C" has to retrace at least 61.8% but not more than 78.6% of Wave "B". And yes, when one trades a Gartley, trade has to be initiated at point "D" with no other confirmation required, and stop to be placed just above/below "X"

Good trading,

Thank you wcicom for the advice on trading Gartley patterns - I look forward to dipping my toes into them. Very interesting that you helped with the MotiveWave project - it is a nice software. Perhaps you would have some insight about something I noticed - sometimes it has a very confusing habit of "bunching up" all the wave forecasts together at the end-of-day marker. Please see screenshots below.

https://anonfile.com/saJ457b4ba/MWforecast1.jpg

https://anonfile.com/r1Ja59baba/MWforecast2.jpg

Maybe there is some setting that rectifies this...?

Thanks!

Shawn